Podcast Launch - De-Suiting the Law

Family Law,Business Law,Litigation,Migration: 08 April 2026

Author: Susan Ilias , Bao Ngo - Our People

De-Suiting the Law is a video podcast hosted by Aitken Partners Principal Lawyers Susan Ilias and Bao Ngo. The series sets out to demystify the legal profession, with real conversations about what lawyers actually do, and why it matters.

We are excited to launch De‑Suiting the Law, a candid video podcast hosted by Aitken Partners Principal Lawyers Susan Ilias and Bao Ngo. You can expect honesty, warmth, and a little humour. Most of all, you will hear the human side of the profession.

Across the series Susan and Bao will explore the realities of Australian law. Discussing professionalism and ethics, the discipline of preparation, the rhythm of court work, and the everyday focus on client care. They also unpack how television and pop culture can shape expectations that do not match local practice. The goal is to show the real side of the industry, educate and entertain, and make complex ideas easier to understand.

Episode 1 looks at American TV drama versus the courtroom reality in Australia. It covers procedural fairness, surprise witnesses, and why lawyers do not roam around the court or ask to approach the bench. It explains the emphasis on civility, and the many months of preparation that sit behind a single hearing.

“There are always common misconceptions about the law, we want to take time to bust some of those myths. And we hope that people will enjoy some of our comparisons between the American TV shows and Australian reality,” said Bao.

“I've actually had clients tap me on the shoulder when I'm making submissions, or if the other party's making submissions and my client feels like I should be objecting, they want to know why I'm not standing up and yelling at my opponent. And I have to explain that there is a sense of courtesy in the courtroom,” said Susan.

De‑Suiting the Law is made for more than just lawyers and we hope it speaks to the broader profession and the public. We invite you to watch, listen, follow, and share. Subscribe on your preferred podcast platform and tell us which topics you want covered next

You can find the podcast on these links at: Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube.

If you'd like to get in touch with Susan or Bao, reach out at the contact details below:

Susan Ilias,  Phone: +61 3 8600 6040  Email: silias@aitken.com.au
Bao Ngo,  Phone: +61 3 8600 6012  Email: bngo@aitken.com.au

Episode 1 Transcript

Bao Ngo 0:53
Hi everyone. I'm Bao Ngo, principal lawyer at Aitken Partners.

Susan Ilias 0:56
And hello, I'm Susan Ilias, also principal lawyer at Aitken Partners.

Bao Ngo 1:00
And over the many years in the legal career, we've had many different cases interacted with multiple different clients. And there are always a common misconceptions about the law. And we want to take time to demyth (demystify/debunk) that.

Susan Ilias 1:13
Demyth that indeed, Bao, what area of law have you practiced in? Do you want to tell the listeners your main area of practice?

Bao Ngo 1:19
Predominantly property, litigation, migration law. And as the office would know, me, a bit of a jack of all trades.

Susan Ilias 1:26
Yes. So my main area of law is family law. So in this episode, we are here to talk about TV shows compared to the reality, and certainly the reality in Australian courtrooms. So Bao, when you think of lawyers, or do you think, when people think of lawyers, they think about Harvey Specter in suits, looking fabulous in his amazing suits, strutting around the courtroom, interjecting, cutting people off when they're giving their evidence. It's certainly the reality is quite different in Australia, especially,

Bao Ngo 2:00
definitely Susan. But I must admit, Harvey Specter has inspired a lot of my outfits through the decades. He's always looking sharp. One thing I would say is that he definitely does not inspire the way that I conduct my matters and the attitude that I have when it comes to dealing with my clients or dealing with other lawyers especially. But I guess what we're trying to achieve is that there is that sort of myth that a lot of law students perceive as sort of the reasons why they want to go to law school and become a lawyer, isn't it?

Susan Ilias 2:30
Susan, yes, absolutely. The other myth too is, I think, that our clients also expect that level of aggression and talking over the top of your opponent, for example. And I think one show in particular, The Good Wife, one lawyer will stand up starting to make submissions, the other lawyer stands up and starts to object and starts to talk over the top of the lawyer, and then they're both yelling and talking over each other with the judge sitting there not being able to hear anything at all. So that's just not the reality in Australian courtroom.

Bao Ngo 3:09
No, and it does place a really unrealistic sort of pressure and burden on us lawyers, particularly if our clients are watching all of these TV shows and then coming into a meeting with us and expecting us to kind of portray that sort of caricature of these characters on, you know, US TV shows. But that's not what really happens as a citizen.

Susan Ilias 3:31
No, it doesn't. I've actually had clients tap me on the shoulder when I'm making submissions, or if the other party's making submissions, and my client feels like I should be objecting. They want to know why I'm not standing up and yelling at my opponent, and I have to explain that there is a sense of, Well, courtesy in the courtroom. Each party has their own opportunity to make their submissions, and this is it's difficult when people watch American shows where they are talking over the top of each other, and we have to be a little more courteous, and each party gets their own opportunity to make their submissions.

Bao Ngo 4:13
Obviously, TV shows are heavily produced. They want that theatrics and the you know, the drama behind it, but in reality, we, you know, are governed by really strict principles of ethics, and we, as you know, legal practitioners do have a duty to our clients, but our paramount duty is to the court. And you know, that includes doing very simple things, and people think that it's not, but do not mislead the court. Don't say statements for the sake of just being overly dramatic, you know. But because of that, I agree with you. I've also had clients who look at me after say, day one of trial, and we go out to a break and they'll say, why didn't you grill them? You know? Why didn't you ask these questions? Is, well, that's not relevant to the actual case.

Susan Ilias 5:03
Well, why don't you speak up when so and so was talking? Well, we're not permitted to do that. There is a certain sense of courtesy, and each person has their opportunity. I just want to make mention of one of my favorite courtroom scenes, and that's a Few Good Men with Tom Cruise as the lawyer and Jack Nicholson as the witness. A very handsome young Tom Cruise and who, I must say, is still very handsome in his 60s, but he's cross examining Jack Nicholson. It's that very famous scene where they're yelling over the top of each other, and then Tom Cruise screams out, I want the truth. And Jack Nicholson famously screams out, you can't handle the truth. If only it was that dramatic and that significant in our courtrooms. But it's not

Bao Ngo 5:59
No, because definitely you cannot be badgering the witness,

Susan Ilias 6:01
And the witness cannot be yelling back as well.

Bao Ngo 6:06
Well, mine, one of my favorites is probably that scene in legally bond, when Elle Woods is conducting that trial, that murder trial, I would say, and she's got that witness in the witness box, and she's, you know, leading evidence, and they start talking about her hair, and that's and I find that so amusing, because in reality, we don't actually get to surprise our witnesses. No surprise witnesses, and the kind of evidence that you want to lead are kind of prepared, and the other side, your opponents, have an opportunity to know well in advance, before the trial day, what sort of questioning you intend to ask these witnesses. Isn't that, right?

Susan Ilias 6:43
Susan, of course, it's a matter of procedural fairness. There are no surprise witnesses, no surprise evidence that we can just present often in the courtroom dramas on TV, the surprise witness will come bouncing through the courtroom door and then into the witness box. That just doesn't happen

Bao Ngo 7:02
Yeah, but in your courtroom. In family law, there is sort of standards that needs to be met when it comes to conducting your trials, right?

Susan Ilias 7:09
Oh, absolutely. And we are given months to prepare our trials, and we have a hearing prior to the trial where the judge wants to know how many witnesses there are, we have strict timetables for filing our material, so by the time the trial arrives, everybody is aware of everybody else's evidence and what's going to be presented to the court. So it's very different. No surprises, no surprise witnesses.

Bao Ngo 7:36
In civil and commercial litigation as well, like you know, you and your opponents are supposed to negotiate and discuss how long, how lengthy your trial dates are going to look like, and you then get that fixed in and if there are supposed to be, you know, surprise witnesses that can actually jeopardize the trial. And then, you know, it's not, it's a waste of the court's resources, but also more time and money for your client as well, but I will say there isn't a real life instance where I've actually managed to pull, I wouldn't say, a surprise witness, but I had a guardianship in VCAT a couple of years ago, where the other side, she was self represented, and she just wanted to obtain a guardianship order over her mother, who at that stage, was in a nursing home. And she made submissions to the senior member on the Tribunal to say that her mother can't attend she's in a nursing home. But little did she know her other siblings, who were my clients, they had gone to the nursing home, told the nursing home that they were just there to take her mum out for a bit of a stroll, but that stroll actually led into the courtrooms of the tribunal. So that's probably the only time where I've seen a member allowed for that because it was important to hear from the individual herself what her wishes were. And ultimately, she told the member that she didn't want this woman to have guardianship over her,

Susan Ilias 9:00
and that was obviously very important for that matter, but certainly in any other jurisdiction that just wouldn't happen.

Bao Ngo 9:08
It definetely would not fly, because then, you know, you could probably have the hearing actually vacated or adjourned off, and then costs being ordered against you, because you pretty much have just wasted the party's time.

Susan Ilias 9:21
Yeah, exactly. The other thing I also wanted to bring up too about is the the way that the courtroom scenes are portrayed on TV where, and we keep referring to the American TV shows, because we are heavily influenced in Australia by American culture and their TV shows, but where the legal practitioners are permitted to walk around the courtroom, they approach the witness, they even ask for permission to approach the bench and talk to the judge. That just doesn't happen here, our feet are firmly planned to. On the floor behind the bar table.

Bao Ngo 10:02
Yeah, and we, and usually addressing the juries in a lot of cases is not that lengthy as well.

Susan Ilias 10:07
No, and we can't approach the jury. We're still standing behind the bar table. So if we had to make a comparison, our courtroom scenes are quite dull and boring.

Bao Ngo 10:20
Yeah, there will be instances where our courtrooms have something spicy or juicy, but that's not contentious, because, like I've said before, the materials have already been put forward to the court and to the other side so they know exactly what we're going to be asking. Yes, exactly. But you know, there's that misconceptions about the theatrics and the drama behind a courtroom scene. And yes, you're right, we are heavily influenced by American TV shows, more so from the perspective say, a client or somebody who has no experience in the courtroom that would think that that's predominantly how our cases are conducted. But, you know, a lot of the times it's really not like that. And that's kind of the myth that we're trying to bust that reality versus, you know, TV reality.

Susan Ilias 11:07
Yeah, it's very different. The other show that I wanted to bring up was a fairly new one. All's fair,

Bao Ngo 11:17
I've seen that. Yes, what did you think of that?

Susan Ilias 11:19
Susan, I had to laugh, because there was a scene they're family lawyers, so I can relate to that. But there was a scene where Kim Kardashian, as her character as a family lawyer, is driving her amazing Bentley convertible. She arrives home in this amazing mansion, her Butler greets her at the door. She walks past her kitchen, where all the chefs are cooking her meal. And I thought, well, that's interesting, because the reality, well, for me, yes, I have a convertible, but it's 30 years old, and when I'm entering home, it's an apartment rather than a huge mansion. So that portrayal, well, maybe, they earn more in

Bao Ngo 12:03
Well in that case they do kind of present that they're chasing the big clients, the multi million dollar clients, and the billings is of course very important to them. And I would, I would admit I was very entertained by that show, but it's, again, a very inaccurate portrayal of what real life lawyers actually do, particularly in your field, with family law, where you know it can it can be very hostile and super contentious, but I don't believe ever once I've seen my opponent or any other lawyer address their opponents with slurs, you know, name calling and yelling across each other in a mediation setting, you know, and while, while doing that in very fabulous outfits I must say.

Susan Ilias 12:48
Yes they do look amazing,

Bao Ngo 12:50
But that would never, ever happen, because it will result in very severe consequences for a practitioner if they did.

Susan Ilias 12:58
Absolutely, if we spoke to our opponents the way that they are portrayed, to speak to each other, we'd be reported to the Legal Services Board, and rightly so. I think, I mean, there has to be a level of professionalism as much as you want to fight for your client and really push their case and win. Of course, that's the objective. It's still a matter of remaining professional, and the slurs and the language that they use towards each other just wouldn't happen here, and if it did as you said, there'd be serious consequences if we did that. So there's another difference and another myth that we want to bust.

Bao Ngo 13:37
Yeah, I mean it would be great to have your own chef when you just come home for a very busy week of trial. But just that's just not the reality of it. And I guess we want to just say to future lawyers out there and the law students who are starting the law it's not as glamorous as they see the show presented to be. It's highly rewarding. And there are moments that it can be glamorous when you're in the office, and there's a special event that might take place after work, but majority of the time it's really long hours, it is hard, and there's a lot of preparation that goes into it, right?

Susan Ilias 14:09
And that's the key preparation. So again, no surprise witnesses, no surprise evidence coming up. It's all about preparation, and there are rules and practice procedures that we have to follow. So it is rewarding. It's hard work, the way that it's portrayed on the TV shows, I had to laugh though. They turn up with five pieces of paper, and they're running a three week murder trial before covid, of course, when the law was still very heavy paper focused, yeah, we would turn up with trolley loads of documents. But since covid, of course, that's that's changed, where it's more paperless,

Bao Ngo 14:53
Yeah, but even then, you know, you have a bundle of documents that both sides need to agree on and send that to the court. And if it was like a couple of weeks trial, I would imagine that to be like 10,000 plus pages on a single bundle PDF documents. So, you know, these it makes, I guess, it glamorizes the profession in a sense that it kind of somewhat undermines the amount of work that goes into being a trial advocate and a trial lawyer, and I think that's something you and I have spoken about. We want to break that myth so people can see that actually, it takes many, many months of preparation.

Susan Ilias 15:31
It does. It takes months of preparation, and there are strict guidelines with filing, as I said, especially for family law matters. So yeah, that's it. That's another myth that you know you can turn up just from one day to the next and run a trial, but that's just not the reality that takes a lot of preparation.

Bao Ngo 15:51
And do you feel that sometimes, with self represented individuals who choose or cannot afford legal representation, the way that they conduct themselves in court is inspired by these TV shows and these American movies.

Susan Ilias 16:06
Yes, absolutely. In fact, I did see one self represented litigant in a Family Law matter who did ask the judge if he could approach the bench. She was furious. It was a flat out, no, you stand behind the bar table and you make your submissions from there. So yeah, it does cause a little bit of Yeah.

Bao Ngo 16:28
I've had one where they've called counsel my learned friend, to which a judge then says, Actually, no, he's not your learned friend. And recently, I had one where it was just a directions hearing. I thought it was going to be relatively easy and fast. And as you know, most directions hearing, the court just wants to know, how is the matter progressing, and are we ready to then proceed with the trial dates that's been booked in. And then on that day, self represented, other side appears, and you know, she tells the court that she's intending on calling 13 witnesses for a three day trial, to which that was very quickly shut down. But I guess with self represented individuals, the court has to provide them with some form of assistance and give them that indulgence. So in this particular matter, they went through the list of the witnesses and, you know, kind of pointed to her what's relevant and what's not relevant.

Susan Ilias 17:23
And probably a lot of them weren't necessarily that relevant to her case.

Bao Ngo 17:27
No, but then she obviously thought that it was okay for her to do because she's been inspired or influenced by a lot of these shows that she's watching. Yeah, exactly.

Susan Ilias 17:35
And look, listeners should not, you know, take this as a bad thing, that the shows are fantastic. We watch them. Yeah. I mean, it's a great way for us to de stress, highly entertaining, you know? But yes, the reality is different. Shows are great, and if they weren't dramatic, we wouldn't watch them. If it was highly representative of the way the Australian courtrooms run, nobody would probably be interested Bao because it's, it's just not that dramatic normally.

Bao Ngo 18:08
I mean, the it's real life, real cases, real problems. And of course, with real problems, there can be some drama that's attached to it, but I guess the difference is that it takes a theatrics out of it. Yes, because these are real people that we're trying to help. And the I guess at the end of the day, you know, if you if someone is passionate about entering to the legal profession. Susan, my advice to them is, do it because you love it you want to help people, and not because you want to wear that expensive pinstripe suits that Harvey is wearing through a lot of his courtroom scenes, or, you know that pink suit that Elle Woods wore in that Legally Blonde movie. Am I right saying that? Susan,

Susan Ilias 18:55
I agree, I agree Bao

Bao Ngo 18:57
So, Susan, we've seen a lot of new lawyers join the industry. Almost every year, there are thousands of new lawyers join the industry. We've got a few new lawyers in our firm as well, and I feel like they have been inspired by, you know, a lot of these American TV shows, but with with the new generation being tech savvy and on social media and following people like Kim Kardashian in taking the bar exam. There are a lot of myths there that we I think we should be demyth and bust as well Susan

Susan Ilias 19:32
I think we've just discussed how different it is in Australian reality courtroom and being a lawyer, I don't see that there's anything wrong with being influenced by these American TV shows and wanting to look the part and dress well. And, you know, be a lawyer because you feel like you're going to make a difference.

Bao Ngo 19:57
So some observations I've made. Is where they don't really see the behind the scenes, the long hours, the briefs they need to compile the paperwork and the documents. And you know, it's great that you can come to the office feeling motivated, feeling inspired by a lot of these fictional characters that you see on these TV screens, but the one thing that they will need to eventually come to grips with is the reality. And the reality is, if you have a case that's high intensity, it requires a lot of paperwork, you will be bogged down at a desk in an office doing the long hours, and you're gonna go home exhausted and tired, and that's the thing these TV shows don't show what happens once a case is over, or, you know what, what, how someone feels when they're preparing for a lengthy trial. And Susan, you've had lengthy trials, you can talk to that family law trials.

Susan Ilias 20:59
Can, you know, be from five days to ten days, there's a lot of preparation that goes into it, and then at the same time, we have to keep our clients measured and calm. And I think the TV shows don't really show that you've got to assist your clients all the way through this. So not that we're counselors, but you do have to manage their emotions, because family law is very emotional, and you're talking about people's children and where they're going to live or spend time with the other parent the division of property. So there are a lot of things that are really, you know, high stakes here for our clients, and I think that's what the TV shows don't tend to show. And the junior lawyers that do come out of law school don't realize that there is that pressure and that expectation for you to manage your clients and manage them well and help them along the way. It's a long time for clients.

Bao Ngo 21:57
I guess with cases, yes, it can be litigious, but we also have a duty to try to help mediate and settle matters where it can be settled and not everything needs to go to a full blown trial.

Susan Ilias 22:09
No, that's right. In fact, in family law now we're obliged to have mediation for property matters. It's a requirement. So there is that sense of trying to resolve matters prior to getting them to trial. And that helps everybody, really.

Bao Ngo 22:25
And you know, you have scenes where, like the lawyers encouraging their clients who ask for a ridiculous amount of property settlements in divorce cases in these American shows, but, and the reality is that you have to be pragmatic in your approach, because if the offer is not accepted, you expose your clients to really lengthy legal costs, but also time, and it's very taxing. Not every single client has the skill to actually be put in a witness box, and that's something that they don't show is that? How does that actually impact or affect a client who has to go through a trial.

Susan Ilias 23:02
Yeah, that's a very good point, because it is very stressful. Although some of the courtroom scenes, the dramatic scenes in the TV shows, where they do have clients in the witness box, I think sometimes they do portray that level of stress that that does happen in reality. So you know, but we are encouraged, of course, to try and resolve matters before they do go to trial. And that's not what you see in these American shows. They do launch straight into litigation, no.

Bao Ngo 23:33
And as a young lawyer, Susan in these shows as well, I think there's also a misconception that you can choose the cases that you pick up, right? And in reality is, if a client comes in and needs your representation as a as a young lawyer, as a junior lawyer, you are going to be assisting if a partner in the matter requires your assistance, and you don't actually get to choose all of these lucrative files or these high profile files, right?

Susan Ilias 24:00
Susan, that's correct. No, that's right. You are given a file and you you have to run with it.

Bao Ngo 24:06
I think another misconception that we see on these TV shows is that it's very outcome driven. What I mean by that is that you only see the scenes of where they're getting an outcome for the clients. They're getting a great result for the clients, or they're getting that very high profile, lucrative financial settlement. Yes, what they what we don't see is the hours of work that goes behind the scenes and the people that's involved in this sort of cases. And I just want us to spend some time just kind of talking about that. Susan, from your perspective as a family law practitioner. What sort of observations Do you see?

Susan Ilias 24:43
Well, I'll just go back Bao and we discussed Suits just a little while ago. We often see Harvey Specter, at the end of the day. It's late, but he's in his office, amazing corner office, having a Scotch or a bourbon and. And that for most people, for most lawyers, is not the reality at the end of the day, we're still in the office, bogged down in work, preparing, whether it be preparing for the next day or for a mediation or a trial. So I've been doing this now for 25 years, and I find that my hours actually have become longer in that you know, we start work early in the morning, and we're still there at night, late at night, or if we are working from home, we're still working at night, and it's very different to what they how they're portrayed in TV shows, what's your experience about how do you feel about the hours that you have to put in?

Bao Ngo 25:46
I do think that if there was a trial, then the preparation is needed, and you do have to put in the hours to prepare the best case for your clients in order to make it trial ready, and that will involve reviewing documents over and over again to get it right, maybe going through affidavit materials that's previously been filed to see if there's anything in there that we could pick up on. Or simple things like cases, to research cases, they take ages to read, and you don't just read it one time, you read it multiple times, and try to understand if there's something in there that you can pick out to help advance your client's case. And that generally does take a lot of hours. But there's also one element that a lot of people don't talk about, is that that's navigating our work aspect of a case, but after a case, we still need to go home, and a lot of our colleagues and friends have families and partners and children that they need to look after as well. And you know, I, you know we speak to our colleagues and our friends and trying to navigate that it's something that a lot of these shows don't actually show. They don't show what it's like for you to have to come home and cook your own dinner, or cook your dinner for your spouse, or put your children to bed, or take your dog out for a walk. So Susan, do you want to talk about that?

Susan Ilias 27:13
Well, yes, they don't portray that at all. But I mean, how boring would that be really, if we were watching people just taking their dog for a walk, as much as I love doing that myself, but I think also for young lawyers coming into the profession, what they don't realize is just the work that has to be done, which is not very exciting and not very interesting. And I'll give you an example in family law, if we're talking about financial disclosure in a property settlement, we have our graduates or our young lawyers looking through all of the financial disclosure, and that can mean hours and hours of looking through bank statements, you know, to see if there is anything in there that we need to address, whether there have been money transfers that we that haven't been disclosed by the other side. So I think the reality is that you do get a lot of work that has to be done that isn't overly exciting. Yeah, that is absolutely necessary, yeah.

Bao Ngo 28:14
And one thing I will say is that as your career progresses, things that would have taken you a really long time, when you're freshly out of law school will actually be much quicker because of the experience that you've built. You know exactly what you're actually looking for now, and you're not really bogged down trying to make sense of what's on the documents, and you know the cases that you want to read, and you know where to go, and you know the people to talk to if you're aware of stuff. So it does get easier and it does get better, but like you said, that's the boring part of the law and a lot of these TV shows, don't actually show that stuff.

Susan Ilias 28:49
No, they don't, but it is very rewarding. It's not as theatrical, but we love the TV series anyway, but we just wanted to bust some of those myths and hope that people have enjoyed our comparisons between the American TV shows and Australian reality.

Bao Ngo 29:08
So thanks everyone who's joined in our very first episode.

Susan Ilias 29:11
Yeah, thanks. Bao.

Susan Ilias 29:13
Thank you. We're just trying to de-suit the law. (Laughter).